Update: when I started making the rounds this morning I saw quite a few comments for the post below…and lengthy posts at that. It’s a great discussion and I took part in the back and forth.
I was going to do “Obligatory 8000th game post” and “Mets Police confirms the Mets have gone 7,999 games without a no-hitter” but thought I’d let this bat leadoff. I’m also resisting the temptation to add an image of Ferris Beuller or something.
Anyway good discussion, and let’s remember that we’re arguing about a child’s game, men in pajamas, millionaires and mega-millionaires.
I’m by no means looking to shut this down. Keep going! I’m thrilled there’s this much passion about a fat guy with an iPad.
….
This was in the comments of the fishing post.
metsburg131 wrote:
For what its worth, here’s what I think about every time Shannon takes a shot at the boycotters:
The plot of every 80s high school movie.
Nerdy kid (Shannon) spends most of his time and energy complaining about all that is wrong with the cool kids (Mets owners/management oddly enough in this scenario). Stupid black unis? Why is their stadium so Dodgery? Stupid plexi-glass partitions? Why do they ignore their fanbase? Why can’t they acknowledge the nerdy kids?
Then Shannon gets invited to sit with the cool kids in the cafeteria, maybe even a party or two (I watched a game with Dave Howard! he’s really not that bad guys, invitations to press events, some influence in the cool kidsphere- unis, banner day etc.). And now all of a sudden, he’s doing the cool kids’ dirty work and making fun of the folks who used to be his friends. Stupid boycotters! Stop being such nerds!
The sad part: he’s a grown man not a confused high school kid.
Well this nerdy kid, is glad to know what my old friend’s true colors are. Now if I can only just retrain my brain to stop visiting this site in every internet browsing cycle! After 3 years, it may take some time.
I am self-described “from the 80’s.”
Sad thing is the comment is spot on.
Funny thing is, Shannon has accomplished a lot of what he has set out to do with the black unis, getting banner day back, Citi Field getting to feel more like home then like the return of Dodgers stadium. See unlike you guys, I have known him for 36 yrs. The shots he is taking at the boycotters is to show how silly they are being. They think they are taking a stand but not going to a game, but they are still supporting the Wilpons by watching SNY, buying Mets gear, listening on the radio,checking Mets.com, etc… Also watch how many of the so called boycotters are starting to jump back onto the bandwagon now.
So, are we (and by we, I mean you, metsburg and Ron) ignoring the fact that the Mets Management is actually doing some of the things that Mets fans have been asking for? Are you chalking that up to them just placating us? They’ve begun de-Dodgering the stadium. They’ve DTB’d. They’ve brought back Banner Day and lowered ticket prices. They’re doing the best with the budget they have and right now there’s really nothing they, or we, can do about it.
The Mets are over-achieving and it’s fun to watch. Santana has come back stronger than we could have hoped for. Wright is off to the start of (hopefully) a career year. Some minor leaguers are playing some pretty good grown-up baseball.
I’ve been reading Shannon’s blog for several years and I don’t believe he’s ever asked for more than two things: 1) to have Mets Management acknowledge what their fanbase wants and 2) for the team to be good. Well, that’s happening now. Mission Accomplished.
So what’s the problem?
As a couple of famous radio hosts would say, if you don’t like it, turn it off.
Sorry for the lecture and for speaking for Shannon but that really irked me…
-Steve
The Mets have done some great things to placate their long time fans…that was smart, because the fly-by-night fans are mainly gone based on the size of the crowds we are seeing. They also have a FANTASTIC baseball regime now in Sandy and Colactus. I still would love to see new ownership, for reasons I have stated many times, we all know the reasons. I seriously don’t know where these “boycotters” are from who must constantly be mocked…I dunno, Twitter? While I think fans jumping back on the bandwagon could use some mocking, the mocking seems to have a dual purpose…to build up the Wilpons…that I just don’t fathom. But this site excels at unearthing great peripheral Met items you don’t get anywhere else. I’d also prefer to see less mocking of other fans. Let’s realize that there were many more Mets fans in 1970 than in 1968…and many more in 1985 than in 1982…that is the nature of sports. A winning team is going to bring out fair weather fans…it’s a great problem to have.
You don’t get it. The mocking of the boycotters is because they say they won’t go to a Mets game because they don’t want to support the Wilpons but will watch the games on SNY and listen on the fan, which is still supporting the Wilpons. Shannon and I have been saying it doesn’t matter who owns the team.(We are all stuck with the Wilpons) But don’t say you aren’t supporting by not going to a game while still supporting by putting money in their pockets through TV and Radio. And as for the bandwagon jumpers, these are the people that have talked trash all winter about how Terry sucks, the Mets suck, Sandy sucks, and now they are all overjoyed pretending that they were with this team all along. And in my opinion some fans deserve to be mocked big time. I can think of one off the top of my head for sure.
Goon- with all due respect, that is crazy logic. I owned season tickets for 27 years. I don’t know how much my one cable box set to SNY generates for the Wilpons per game but I imagine it is likely well less than $1 per game- probably less than ten cents. Don’t fool yourself in to thinking these are equal.
Now if you are talking about the principal of it, will it get to the point where I have to divorce myself from the team entirely because I can’t even bear to concede to that 10 cents being chipped in to their bottom line? Maybe. I hope not. I love this team. I believe regardless of who owns them, they are ours. But I think all the boycotters now are hoping we never get to that point.
But this kind of back and forth e.g “you don’t get it” is perfect evidence of the problem. This site is a community and one that for ever was built on respect.
I gather that Shannon took a ton of heat from ***holes on twitter so gung ho about the idea of boycott that he decided to pay it back. I don’t know him for 37 years, but that doesn’t seem like him – or at least not the version of him he created to be the voice of the site.
Bottom line is this infighting is bad and of all places shouldn’t be happening here. The regulars here are all passionate about the Mets and all banded together to bring about some awesome changes in the franchise. There is no reason to drive a wedge through this community in the year we should all be enjoying incredibly beautiful uniforms and not a single black uni sighting more than 1 month in.
Some of us are boycotting the owners on various terms. Most of us probably aren’t. None of us are bad fans. As we’ve always done, we each follow this team in the way we see most fitting. There are plenty of issues for Mets Police to tackle- don’t come down on your own.
“But this kind of back and forth e.g “you don’t get it” is perfect evidence of the problem. This site is a community and one that for ever was built on respect. ”
metsburg,
You said it better than I could have…despite all I have contributed to this site in terms of content and comments, and Shannon has been nothing but a gracious host, MG has taken to personally responding to many of my posts, often in a somewhat condescending and sometimes personal, disrespectful manner…once threatening to ban me for being too enthusiastic and posting too much. I post a lot less now, so I guess he got his wish.
I’m not a boycotter…but I won’t ever believe in the Wilpons, based on all you have said, though I don’t think Fred is as bad a guy as you do….notice I did not comment about the other two in the ownership troika. Fred has just put his faith in some very bad people (Madoff…Charlie Samuels).
Steve D- I will make a public apology right now if I made you feel disrespected. I can Man Up on that front. I just want you to know that your contributions are indeed welcomed and appreciated by Shannon and I.(more so Shannon then me since it helps him with posts). Also thank you for calming down on the over commenting to your own comments on the site. The many, many complaints I was getting about it have stopped. So keep up the good comments that lead to good discussions.
Hear, hear! Well done, Steve D!
bottom line is you can’t support the team without supporting the Wilpons. Just like you can’t buy an iPad without supporting Steve Jobs. Switching from one type of fan to another is just a switch, it’s not a withdrawal. That stuff goes on all the time. Fans invest less time and money in a team, other fans invest more. sometimes the net investment is down, because the team is.
You can claim it’s because of ownership and not the team (but the team itself doesn’t know that. so the quiet stadium you’re envisioning is seen by David Wright as you not supporting him. Even worse, it’s seen as US not supporting him.) but the bottom line is if the Mets play like they’re playing the boycotters will be a drop in a bucket and the Wilpons aren’t affected, only the boycotters who don’t get to watch the Mets are.
Wilpons make a ton of money off of Sny
What I mean about what you don’t get is why Shannon is saying what he is saying about the boycotters. Do you really think if you don’t go to the games the Wilpons are going to go away? They are going to be around for a long time. But by saying you aren’t putting money into their pockets by not going to games you are still putting money in their pockets with SNY and Wfan. Do you miss going to see the Mets live? I don’t like the Dolans but I won’t deprive myself of going to see a Rangers game. I am not a fanmof the Wilpons personally but imenjoy going to see the Mets play on the weekends when I am off. Now,why exactly are you not going to games? Because of not signing Reyes? Cutting the payroll? Just not liking how team is run? I am curious about it.
See, I don’t recall Mets Police and Shannon ever supporting what seems to be the base “boycotter” demands, that: The Wilpons sell the team, such or such should be fired/hired, and that the Mets must spend like the Yankees.
Listen, I happen to have a ton of respect for Shannon and what he has done with this site and through this site. And I believe he is a good guy… no scratch that, I know he is a good guy. And a testament to what a standup guy he is, is that he took my criticism from the bottom of a post that probably wouldn’t have been read more than a few more times, and put it front and center to create some discourse.
But the degree to which I respect Shannon, is exactly why I have found the new tact of incessant needling of a segment of the Mets fanbase so uncharacteristic and frankly disappointing. I love this site and I love what we have been able to accomplish these past few years (and by we I mean Shannon and crew- their energy, organization and tact and then us, the site’s regulars whose show of support for those initiatives that we believed were best for this organization (preserving history while building toward a better future) actually made a difference.
I have made a few comments on this new tact in the past month, starting with the kid gloves and ratcheting up the heat slowly. I don’t want to hurt or irk anyone. I just don’t want to see an important part of this community alienated for doing the kind of thing this site has always been about- demanding accountability from the people who hold the keys to our team.
I can’t speak for other boycotters but for me this is not about wins and losses. For me this is about my belief that the current owners of this team are bad men who amassed significant wealth from the greatest ponzi scheme in history. Did they know for a fact their profits were crooked? We can never know. My gut tells me yes. Did they know (or should they have known) that those profits were suspect? I firmly believe yes they should have and further more yes they did.
And so, that is my dilemma. I can’t in good conscious, support those men financially. Is my ability to boycott mitigated by the fact that those bad men also own the network that broadcasts all of my team’s games? Of course. But that does not make the boycott “silly” as Goon proposed. One television tuned to SNY 162 times a year does not equal 4 season tickets + parking, 2-3 jerseys, hats and an impossible amount of food for a family of 4 (plus who knows what else I end up buying there).
I have long critcized the Yankees (especially when George was at the helm) for being scum or the evil empire etc. but the reality is that it was our owners that were linked to a massive criminal financial scheme and sued for $1 billion prior to settling for much less. And amongst the evidence against them, the money used to close the SNY deal was signed over by Ruth Madoff. You don’t find it one bit alarming that the links between Madoff fraud and the Wilpon/Katz were this close? You don’t fear for a minute that where there was that much smoke there was fire?
But that is not the point. I don’t ask anyone to boycott. I just ask people to understand that I am doing it because I believe it is right. I also believe that the owners remain on the brink and so it is also pragmatic. And so, just like I did for the past few years on other lost causes like blue caps and drop shadowless unis, blue walls and banner days, I will do my small part for what I believe is best for the team and its future.
One last thing, the assumption that boycotting is harder as the Mets rack more wins up and climb further over .500 is completely false. The hardest day of the season for me was Opening Day missing my first in 28 years. Since then, the late inning loss on a cold rainy night is no easier or harder than beautiful night dramatic victory.
The wins and losses are irrelevant. I love the Mets. I want them to win. I agree that the baseball people in place now are right for the team and its future (for the record Alderson was not a Wilpon decision, he was sent with strong insistence from the commisioners office). Whatever, they have the right people in the GM’s office now. There’s just one thing left to fix and then I can have my Beatles moment. The time for new ownership has come and I believe it is close.
Shannon believes it is not and that the next owners if they should ever come will be rich white guys with equally shady pasts. He could be right. I respect his opinion. I just ask him to respect mine.
This is a fantastic discussion. I’m hanging back because I obviously get to speak my mind several times a day.
I think Goon well described my thoughts.
I don’t know how many boycotters are out there, but I can say that the mocking-the-boycotters posts are the least interesting posts for me, and I skip them.
If the basis for one’s boycott is a disdain for the owners on a personal level, there’s not much more to say. I don’t see the point, myself, as I don’t research the CEO of any other company whose products I enjoy to ensure they’re good people. Why should a baseball team be any different? It’s basically the same situation as a singer I like making some asanine political statement. I really don’t care. I pay him for his work, not what he does on his own time.
Beyond that, the Wilpons aren’t going anywhere. They’ve dodged the biggest bullet they’re going to face. I haven’t been a big fan of many things they’ve done either, but I can assure you that were I in their shoes, I’d also do everything single thing I possibly could to hold on to the team. Of all the things for which I can blame them, doing what they have to do to keep the team isn’t one of them.
Furthermore, the overriding complaint over the winter wasn’t that the Wilpons are crooked people. It was that they were too cheap, let Reyes walk, and allowed the team to plunge into indefinite suckitude. As the wins and losses demonstrate, that was all more about fan ego than actual baseball. I honestly don’t even know what to say to a Mets fan who hasn’t yet figured out over the past 20 years that throwing money around doesn’t a good team make.
As for everything else, yeah, it sucks that they had to be nagged into not sending the team out in butt-ugly uniforms or making the stadium actually look like the Mets play in it, but at least they listened. Yeah, it’d be nice if they didn’t have to be told the right way to do things, but they get there in the end.
Continuing to be mad about broken things after they’ve been fixed is just silly, and borders on obsessive.
Joe it’s interesting. The cycle of the blog has been “shut up stop complaining” to “you don’t complain enough” with tinges of sellout.
On May 27th I will attend Banner Day and the Mets will wear uniforms without dropshadow. That combines two major things I wanted to see changed.
The scorebug thing is a real opinion but I’m having fun with it. I don’t kick my dogs over it.
Goon walked you thru the “boycott” – I don’t think anyone really is. That’s the point. Sure some people are buying fewer tickets. There’s probably even one guy out there who is now a Cardinals fan or gave up baseball entirely. But most of the outspoken people are following the Mets quite closely. (yeah it’s a twitter thing)
Re Dave Howard – sorry guys but I have spent time with him and he’s a cool guy. I’m the guy who nagged him publicly into a game, so it’s not like it was some scheme to co-opt me. As I blogged in September we had a normal conversation about our lives and I like the man. I found him EXTREMELY knowledgable about baseball and he specifically mentioned one player none of you saw coming that he thought would be a star. So far he is right.
If you’d like me to complain about the obstructed views every day I can.
As for the front runners: oh I’m always going to call people on that.
Great discussion. I thank you all for reading and having the passion to write the very long comments that this post has generated.
I didn’t mean to type this long and don’t want to shut down this discussion. Please keep going.
How was the stadium “De-Dodgered”? They only added “stuff”, didn’t take anything away.
BTW, I never thought the place was an ode to the Dodgers to begin with.
From a media/SNY standpoint, ownership makes far more money from SNY than they ever will simply owning the team. Selling out every game and all the concessions still do not equal the money they make from SNY on a yearly basis. Cable is such a wonderful business if you can get into it because cable networks enjoy a dual revenue stream. They really do not have to sell a dime of advertising to make money. For every person who receives SNY in their home (regardless of if they watch it) the network receives on average $2.55 per month.
Here are some real numbers. There are 7.6MM people in the NY DMA. 97% of them have cable or satellite service which means about 7.2MM people in the NY DMA likely receive SNY which means SNY receives $18.4MM a month from just the NY DMA. This number doesn’t include Albany and areas north of Albany or the parts of CT and NJ that aren’t included in the NY DMA. The money they bring in through SNY is staggering.
Honestly you or anyone for that matter is not technically supporting SNY outside of paying your cable bill. The only way you could further support the network is if you had a Nielsen box in your home and you tuned in. If you don’t have a Nielsen box in your home you really are not supporting the network outside of the monthly $2.55 that is part of your cable bill.
So everyone with cable supports the Wilpons! Get those rabbit ears out.
Yes that’s silly..that’s my point about the hypothetical “going Wilponless”
Shannon, a lot of concessions have been in this thread- none by you.
The thread starts with my criticism of your refusal to respect the anti-Wilpon contingent- people I contend are good Mets fans who have just had it.
It is filled with several people backing your view point, a few backing mine and a lot of folks who see both sides.
But ironically, the last comment at the end of a fairly active thread is the same kind of comment that you are being called out on (with love) in the first place.
Dude- I am feeling very free of the Wilpons these days. I assure you! And I still feel in tune with our team and am enjoying our run. The only place I have felt alienated is here- a site I felt a part of.
You want to insist that I am not boycotting because I am a cable subscriber, or whatever silly point you will post in the coming weeks? Fine, you’re right. I tried. Sometimes, its easier to say, “you know what, I might have handled some of this wrong. i can do better. thanks for caring.”
Wow – what a great comment thread. I remember when MP got started 4 years ago how amazed we were the first time there was 1 comment. After all, this was a small little blog created by one guy who didn’t like the uniforms the Mets were wearing on a certain day. That first year the blog was still finding its voice – sure the title was MetsPolice, but there were posts about the Jets, the Yankees, Bruce Springsteen – some weeks it was all over the place.
Over the years Shannon’s voice has become much more focused, and with that focus has come a general recognition for his work. I’ve known the man for about 15 years and his claim is true – he is just a middle-aged married guy who happens to be a fan and used to email his “rants” to a bunch of other guys. Now he does it on a blog and people listen. Including apparently the Mets.
Goon did a great job of summarizing things, but I’ll add my 2 cents. A few years ago we actually printed up some business cards for the site (I remember handing out some at Opening Day 2009). On the back of the card was the quote “Calling the Mets (and frankly anyone else) on the carpet for all the stupid things they do. With Love” I relate this because the key part of that is the last 2 words – With Love. This blog was created because of a love for a team – not a love of ownership, not a love of any particular player, but a love and passion for the Mets. That has not wavered, and if anything the blog, and the general response from readers has only emboldened that love and passion. Shannon is hardly a sell-out – if anything he is a great example of what one man can do who has passion and drive.
As for the “boycotters” I know where they come from. For years I refused to drink on St. Patrick’s Day because I wanted to prove that not every Irishman drank on St. Patrick’s Day. What did that accomplish? Nothing – except that I ended up not enjoying a lot of St. Patrick’s Days, not because I wasn’t drinking, but because of my attitude about it. Now, I may have a beer or 2, just like any other day – but I can enjoy the day now without trying to be dogmatic. The lesson, relax, enjoy, and have fun.
The problem is that Shannon uses the term “boycotters” with huge blanket of contempt for anyone not spending some dough at Planet Citi these days. It’s kind of unfair. Many longtime, hard core fans still follow the team on television and root hard for young guys, even while maintaining their deep unhappiness with ownership and management. This would be me.
The former outsider is now the ultimate insider pushing the Kool-Aid all the time….still, I always dig MetsPolice and its Jim Jones webmaster! (Or is it Kim Philby?) So of course, the problem’s all mine, really. And anybody else who sometimes recoils from what Shannon’s serving.
Finally, what the about the freakin’ urinals – huh? Well, what about ’em!? I know you’re reading this Dave Howard (or Dave Howard staffer).
I park on 113th, bring snacks and a bottled water. you don’t have to spend money. Plenty of ways to go on the cheap and still enjoy!
Or – and you should endorse this – plenty of ways to be a Mets fan without going to the park!
I’m jumping in ahead of Shannon here but if you aren’t going to games for economic reasons that’s a perfectly legitimate reason, and has nothing really to do with those who refuse to go thinking it will spite the Wilpons. Tickets can be expressive for some people, especially in a down economy. While I think the Mets have done a decent job in addressing some of that with specials and lower priced tickets in some sections for some games, it can be quite limiting.
I think we might also note that quite legitimately, MP has a financial stake in the success of the Mets. This site has really taken off – thanks to Shannon and his crew and all their hard work – and has paying advertisers and associate deals tied to the team: tickets, merchandise, special deals etc. The money may not be huge, but it’s become a top tier Mets site and I’m there’s some hope of making it bigger. Frankly, I hope MP succeeds in making some dough. Deserves it.
While I trust the MP guys, who I’ve been reading for a couple of years, to speak their minds you also have to consider the business side of things. Sometimes, a shift in focus is about business. And there’s nothing wrong with that, as long as it’s upfront.
I’ll answer for Shannon about the advertisers. We work on this site for fun and not for financial gain. Do we have advertising, yep sure do reason for that is so we can put money back into the site. It’s also hey let’s go buy some food at a game money. I don’t see any money for “pay” and really neither does Shannon. My real job is way more lucrative then what Metspolice takes in. If the Mets were to win the world series this year while wearing these drop shadowless jerseys, Shannon would have accomplished what he set out to see happen and probably would do what he has always promised, ride off into the sunset.
In may (doing this from memory)
Stitches ad – swapped for some services specifically some jersey work.
Amazin tix – $50. A number I have mentioned several times.
The top box ad and banner ad is a deal with fan vs dan. I think it was about $90.
TiqiQ figures I dont know.
April was similar.
On Easter the Mets comped me two tickets.
I have a 15 game plan I paid the going price for.
I too hope the site makes lots of money and sure the more people who are emotionally invested in the Mets the more eyeballs will hit the site.
As I said I hope you guts do well with the site – much deserved.
Tom Watson
CauseWired
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